Who You Creepin'?

Monday, July 19, 2010

...Bypassing the electoral college...

I am really, REALLY confused about this proposed bill.

The bill will essentially make it so no matter how an individual state votes, the electoral votes within that state would go towards the candidate who won the National Popular vote. In theory, if all states enacted this legislation, the winner of the National Vote gets all electoral votes in a shutout.

In theory, that's sorta cool.

But in practice, in an environment when BP and Bank of America were given the green light by our Supreme Court to spend as much money necessary and possible in order to anoint the next CEO of America, it is a dangerous thing.

First of all, you'll hear mostly the Lefties, who are in favor of this bill, talk about how this will "make every vote count" and will energize the populace - which may in fact be true. You'll hear right wingers say that that it isn't fair b/c the coasts dominate the number of people in this country, and they can dwarf a "fly over" state in the middle. New York City, for example, will go a long way in swaying the vote, and New York City is going to vote Obama for President against every McCain, Palin, Sanford or Jindal.

If you are able to remove your own political bias, and see through the myths that both sides will create, you're left with this inner conversation and list of questions:

How will this change things?

Well, the answer is we don't really know. Electoral Math is a Science - or - Electoral Science is Math. People get paid a lot of money to determine how to spend the money that dictates the outcomes of elections. If you take TV advertising as the Gold Standard, essentially someone decides, "We are going to advertise in Alabama b/c we think we can win Alabama. We are going to spend 0$ in California, however, b/c the other candidate will win there."

Why does it matter how they spend the money, they want all the votes they can get, right?

Electoral advertising isn't purely about speaking to as many people as possible, its about adding up the potential electoral votes you can get or not get. If you know you're going to lose California and its 55 electoral votes, why waste a single dime there? Find a way to make up the other 55 in a combination of 8 or 9 states - thats how you win.

But I like to look at the National Election #'s and paint a picture!

Well, tough crap. Take my example above, the population of California could be, and likely has, completely forfeited in favor of attempting to secure a collection of smaller states, whose electoral votes could be more powerful than their population #'s.

What I'm trying to say is that adding up the popular vote IN PAST ELECTIONS and using it as a point, "My guy should have won, he got more votes!" is really disingenuous. It's not telling a complete story, its an irrelevant practice using numbers to their own advantage.

So if this bill passes, won't we just cut through all that crap and elect the person we want, as a Nation?

Maybe we will, but I don't want to take that chance. I like the electoral college - there haven't been examples in which a candidate won a particular state, but didn't get the credit for it. That isn't in danger. Voters are confused by the system, but those who don't vote b/c that portion of the system confuses them are not worth pandering to - it is remarkably unfair to pander to them.

So what is your solution, mr. hotpants know it all head?

Listen, if you want to abolish the electoral college, I'll have that conversation seperately, that's NOT what this bill is. This bill is keeping the electoral college there, and then assigning the votes to the candidate who gets the National vote. In practice, if McCain/Palin had more votes than Obama, and if Obama won Massachusetts by 80/20, Massachusetts electoral college votes would go to McCain/Palin.

This would be fine if all 50 states + DC were on board, but the group steering this bill is hoping purely to get just enough of the states to add up to an electoral majority. 270 state electoral votes or so are needed in order to coup this next election. So there is some grey area, a few rounding errors away from the unthinkable.

A candidate could win MA by a landslide, win the National Popular vote by a slim margin, but still not have enough electoral votes to take the cake.

If your problem is with the electoral college system, remove the system. Don't tweak it just enough to give us a potential disaster then Deval Patrick your way out of it with a last minute vote change. Don't try to Hilary your way out of it by acting as if you care about the voice of the voters.

Its about winning, and its cynical.

What are you so worried about? What effect could it have long term?

I can tell you the effect, and I can see it playing out sooner than later. In '08, Hilary and Obama agreed that Michigan & Florida, if they moved up their primaries before NH, would not count towards the Democratic nomination, it was agreed on beforehand. Hilary didn't like the result, she demanded the MI votes count, and fought for it.

In '10, the Democrats in MA fought to allow Deval Patrick to place an appointment in as Kennedy's replacement after his death. In '04, the Democrats fought to strip Romney of that same right if Kerry had become President.

My point is, all of this hemming and hawing is a way that the Democrats see a chance to steal a few elections. Make this about NY and LA, energize the base in Miami, Chicago, Houston, etc - and there is no way that Middle America will be able to overcome the will of the traditionally lefty groups.

That's the Dems goal, and its dishonest and unfair. And that makes me sad. At some point this Law will come back to bite those who voted in favor of it, and they will want to change the rule.

This isn't a law about making the will of the people heard, its a law about being cynical enough to think you can trick voters into thinking they matter - but it's really about the math, the science and the fact that Democrats know they will win if they win battleground CITIES, not States, under this format.


8 comments:

toto said...

The current system of electing the president ensures that the candidates do not reach out to all of the states and their voters. Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind. The reason for this is the state-by-state winner-take-all rule (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but now used by 48 states), under which all of a state's electoral votes are awarded to the candidate who gets the most votes in each separate state.

Presidential candidates concentrate their attention on only a handful of closely divided "battleground" states and their voters. In 2008, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their campaign events and ad money in just six states, and 98% in just 15 states (CO, FL, IN, IA, MI, MN, MO, NV, NH, NM, NC, OH, PA, VA, and WI). 12 of the 13 smallest states were NOT included. Over half (57%) of the events were in just four states (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania and Virginia). In 2004, candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states; over 80% in nine states; and over 99% of their money in 16 states, and candidates concentrated over two-thirds of their money and campaign visits in five states and over 99% of their money in 16 states.
Two-thirds of the states and people have been merely spectators to the presidential elections.


Another shortcoming of the current system is that a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide. This has occurred in one of every 14 presidential elections.

In the past six decades, there have been six presidential elections in which a shift of a relatively small number of votes in one or two states would have elected (and, in 2000, did elect) a presidential candidate who lost the popular vote nationwide.

toto said...

The National Popular Vote bill would GUARANTEE the Presidency to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

Every vote, everywhere, would be politically relevant and equal in presidential elections. Candidates would need to care about voters across the nation, not just undecided voters in a handful of swing states.

The bill would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes--that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). When the bill comes into effect, all the electoral votes from those states (at least the 270 needed to win) would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC).

The bill uses the power given to each state by the Founding Fathers in the Constitution to change how they award their electoral votes for president. The National Popular Vote bill does not try to abolish the Electoral College, which would need a constitutional amendment, and could be stopped by states with as little as 3% of the U.S. population. Historically, virtually all of the major changes in the method of electing the President (for example, ending the requirement that only men who owned substantial property could vote), including current state-by-state winner-take-all laws, have come about by state legislative action, without federal constitutional amendments.

The bill has been endorsed or voted for by 1,922 state legislators (in 50 states) who have sponsored and/or cast recorded votes in favor of the bill.

In Gallup polls since 1944, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided). The recent Washington Post, Kaiser Family Foundation, and Harvard University poll shows 72% support for direct nationwide election of the President. Support for a national popular vote is strong in virtually every state, partisan, and demographic group surveyed in recent polls in closely divided battleground states: Colorado-- 68%, Iowa --75%, Michigan-- 73%, Missouri-- 70%, New Hampshire-- 69%, Nevada-- 72%, New Mexico-- 76%, North Carolina-- 74%, Ohio-- 70%, Pennsylvania -- 78%, Virginia -- 74%, and Wisconsin -- 71%; in smaller states (3 to 5 electoral votes): Alaska -- 70%, DC -- 76%, Delaware --75%, Maine -- 77%, Nebraska -- 74%, New Hampshire --69%, Nevada -- 72%, New Mexico -- 76%, Rhode Island -- 74%, and Vermont -- 75%; in Southern and border states: Arkansas --80%, Kentucky -- 80%, Mississippi --77%, Missouri -- 70%, North Carolina -- 74%, and Virginia -- 74%; and in other states polled: California -- 70%, Connecticut -- 74% , Massachusetts -- 73%, Minnesota -- 75%, New York -- 79%, Washington -- 77%, and West Virginia- 81%.

The National Popular Vote bill has passed 30 state legislative chambers, in 20 small, medium-small, medium, and large states, including one house in Arkansas (6), Connecticut (7), Delaware (3), Maine (4), Michigan (17), Nevada (5), New Mexico (5), New York (31), North Carolina (15), and Oregon (7), and both houses in California (55), Colorado (9), Hawaii (4), Illinois (21), New Jersey (15), Maryland (10), Massachusetts (12), Rhode Island (4), Vermont (3), and Washington (11). The bill has been enacted by Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, Maryland, and Washington. These five states possess 61 electoral votes -- 23% of the 270 necessary to bring the law into effect.

See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com

toto said...

Some math:

The 11 most populous states contain 56% of the population of the United States and a candidate would win the Presidency if 100% of the voters in these 11 states voted for one candidate. However, if anyone is concerned about the this theoretical possibility, it should be pointed out that, under the current system, a candidate could win the Presidency by winning a mere 51% of the vote in these same 11 states -- that is, a mere 26% of the nation's votes.

The political reality is that the 11 largest states rarely agree on any political question. In terms of recent presidential elections, the 11 largest states include five "red states (Texas, Florida, Ohio, North Carolina, and Georgia) and six "blue" states (California, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and New Jersey). The fact is that the big states are just about as closely divided as the rest of the country. For example, among the four largest states, the two largest Republican states (Texas and Florida) generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Bush, while the two largest Democratic states generated a total margin of 2.1 million votes for Kerry.

Moreover, the notion that any candidate could win 100% of the vote in one group of states and 0% in another group of states is far-fetched. Indeed, among the 11 most populous states, the highest levels of popular support , hardly overwhelming, were found in the following seven non-battleground states:
* Texas (62% Republican),
* New York (59% Democratic),
* Georgia (58% Republican),
* North Carolina (56% Republican),
* Illinois (55% Democratic),
* California (55% Democratic), and
* New Jersey (53% Democratic).

In addition, the margins generated by the nation's largest states are hardly overwhelming in relation to the 122,000,000 votes cast nationally. Among the 11 most populous states, the highest margins were the following seven non-battleground states:
* Texas -- 1,691,267 Republican
* New York -- 1,192,436 Democratic
* Georgia -- 544,634 Republican
* North Carolina -- 426,778 Republican
* Illinois -- 513,342 Democratic
* California -- 1,023,560 Democratic
* New Jersey -- 211,826 Democratic

To put these numbers in perspective, Oklahoma (7 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 455,000 "wasted" votes for Bush in 2004 -- larger than the margin generated by the 9th and 10th largest states, namely New Jersey and North Carolina (each with 15 electoral votes). Utah (5 electoral votes) alone generated a margin of 385,000 "wasted" votes for Bush in 2004.

toto said...

When presidential candidates campaign to win the electoral votes of closely divided battleground states, such as in Ohio and Florida, under the state-by-state winner-take-all rules, the big cities in those battleground states do not receive all the attention, much less control the outcome. Cleveland and Miami certainly did not receive all the attention or control the outcome in Ohio and Florida in 2000 and 2004.

Likewise, under a national popular vote, every vote everywhere will be equally important politically. There will be nothing special about a vote cast in a big city or big state. When every vote is equal, candidates of both parties will seek out voters in small, medium, and large towns throughout the states in order to win. A vote cast in a big city or state will be equal to a vote cast in a small state, town, or rural area.

More Math:
The population of the top five cities (New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston and Philadelphia) is only 6% of the population of the United States and the population of the top 50 cities (going as obscurely far down in name recognition as Arlington, TX) is only 19% of the population of the United States. Even if one makes the far-fetched assumption that a candidate could win 100% of the votes in the nation's top five cities, he would only have won 6% of the national vote.

If the National Popular Vote bill were to become law, it would not change the need for candidates to build a winning coalition across demographics. Any candidate who yielded, for example, the 21% of Americans who live in rural areas in favor of a "big city" approach would not likely win the national popular vote. Candidates would still have to appeal to a broad range of demographics, and perhaps even more so, because the election wouldn't be capable of coming down to just one demographic, such as voters in Ohio.

Unknown said...

Toto,

First, as I said in my original post, if you want to abolish the electoral college overall, that's a separate conversation/bill than this one. This is to keep the electoral college, but sidestep its influence. Its like being mad at BP for an infinity of oil leakage, but allowing them to continue drilling. Fish or cut bait.

Second, while the response is welcomed, your last sentence infuriates me, it really does. The goal of the election (and i know this annoys you, which is valid) isn't to get the highest # of popular votes. You say the election could have been swayed by a small # of votes in 1 or 2 states - but that's not telling the whole story, because winning the popular vote wasn't the candidates plan.

2000 is a perfect example of how Dems. refuse to believe there was any planning or math involved in the election. Bush knew there were states he was going to lose, and he sacrificed those POPULAR votes - he wasn't attempting to win individual votes in all states, so saying the results could have been swayed is ignoring the strategy that led to that result.

Bottom line is that the Left thinks that rampant $$$/political planning in campaigning is a cancer, but in the case of the 2000 election they diminish the power of TV and planned/targeted advertising by going back to the "but Gore won the popular vote" argument. The planned $$$'s for advertising were not targeted at the largest number of people, but the people who could make the most difference - that leaves the history of the popular vote results completely moot.

Unknown said...

Check out Toto!

I don't know if this is a human writing or a collection of interns compiling data and hammering away at personal blogs, but I'm intrigued.

This is not a matter of numbers, or facts or figures - it seriously isn't, its a matter of the Left thinking they can win more elections in the short term with this strategy - look at the way the MA House vote was split, it's clearly a politicized argument.

Next, I don't care what a Gallup Poll of the voters says in terms of preference. How can you, at one point, pay homage to the wisdom of the Founding Fathers, but out of the same breath say that the will of the populace is of equal importance.

The founding fathers were the most elite of the elite - the people you are talking about in the gallup poll are 200 years removed from being the slaves of those founding fathers - so that really does give those 2 facts some perspective.

I like reading me a good book about James Madison as much as the next guy, but painting them as Amazing Kreskin's who would know and/or understand the complexities of 2010 politics is a tactic of the desperate.

toto said...

By state, by political affiliation, support for a national popular vote in recent polls has been:
Alaska - 78% Democrats, 66% Republicans, 70% Nonpartisan voters, 82% Alaska Independent Party voters, and 69% others.
Arkansas - 88% Democrats, 71% Republicans, and 79% independents.
California – 76% Democrats, 61% Republicans, and 74% independents
Colorado - 79% Democrats, 56% Republicans, and 70% independents.
Connecticut - 80% Democrats, 67% Republicans, and 71% others
Delaware - 79% Democrats, 69% Republicans, and 76% independents
District of Columbia - 80% Democrats, 48% Republicans, and 74% of independents
Idaho - 84% Democrats, 75% Republicans, and 75% others
Florida - 88% Democrats, 68% Republicans, and 76% others
Iowa - 82% Democrats, 63% Republicans, and 77% others
Kentucky - 88% Democrats, 71% Republicans, and 70% independents
Maine - 85% Democrats, 70% Republicans, and 73% others
Massachusetts - 86% Democrats, 54% Republicans, and 68% others
Michigan - 78% Democrats, 68% Republicans, and 73% independents
Minnesota - 84% Democrats, 69% Republicans, and 68% others
Mississippi - 79% Democrats, 75% Republicans, and 75% Others
Nebraska - 79% Democrats, 70% Republicans, and 75% Others
Nevada - 80% Democrats, 66% Republicans, and 68% Others
New Hampshire - 80% Democrats, 57% Republicans, and 69% independents
New Mexico - 84% Democrats, 64% Republicans, and 68% independents
New York - 86% Democrats, 66% Republicans, 78% Independence Party members, 50% Conservative Party members, 100% Working Families Party members, and 7% Others
North Carolina - 75% liberal Democrats, 78% moderate Democrats, 76% conservative Democrats, 89% liberal Republicans, 62% moderate Republicans , 70% conservative Republicans, and 80% independents
Ohio - 81% Democrats, 65% Republicans, and 61% Others
Oklahoma - 84% Democrats, 75% Republicans, and 75% others
Oregon - 82% Democrats, 70% Republicans, and 72% independents
Pennsylvania - 87% Democrats, 68% Republicans, and 76% independents
Rhode Island - 86% liberal Democrats, 85% moderate Democrats, 60% conservative Democrats, 71% liberal Republicans, 63% moderate Republicans, 35% conservative Republicans, and 78% independents,
South Dakota - 84% Democrats, 67% Republicans, and 75% others
Utah - 82% Democrats, 66% Republicans, and 75% others
Vermont - 86% Democrats; 61% Republicans, and 74% Others
Virginia - 79% liberal Democrats, 86% moderate Democrats, 79% conservative Democrats, 76% liberal Republicans, 63% moderate Republicans, and 54% conservative Republicans, and 79% Others
Washington - 88% Democrats, 65% Republicans, and 73% others
West Virginia - 87% Democrats, 75% Republicans, and 73% others
Wisconsin - 81% Democrats, 63% Republicans, and 67% independents

http://nationalpopularvote.com/pages/polls.php

Unknown said...

for everyone still reading, 60% of the population wants to abolish gay marriage, and more people believe in God than in evolution, like they are mutually exclusive...or are they?

either way, my point is just because the people want something one way, that doesn't mean its right.